Thread: (n choose k) How can I work this out?

I know what n choose k means but usually I get given both the values.

Originally Posted by uperkurk

I know what n choose k means but usually I get given both the values.

This means

From that we get,

I don't get it... what value is N?

But how do I compute that using my calculator? N still does not have a value, you're saying 8x7x6x5 = (N - 4) but what is N?

Originally Posted by uperkurk

I know what n choose k means <--- ähemm?
but usually I get given both the values.

Originally Posted by uperkurk

I don't get it... what value is N?

But how do I compute that using my calculator? <--- you don't have to use a calculator!
N still does not have a value, you're saying 8x7x6x5 = (N - 4) but what is N?

1. Definbition:

With your equation you get:



2. Divide through by n!. Cross-multiply and you'll get:



3. Cancel equal factors and you'll get:



and that's the equation Plato has posted in his post (and that's what you should have got because you know what n choose k means)

4. This is a quartic equation in n. By first inspection you get n = -1 as a solution. But since this solution isn't valid.
You'll get the solution by comparison of the factors. And that's your turn.

I've never used that formular when solving these equations. Take for example 10 choose 7. I just do 10! / 7! / 3! and I get 120
and for example 20 choose 5 = 20! / 5! / 15! = 15,504

I don't know how to use that formular to answer these questions :/

Originally Posted by uperkurk

I've never used that formular when solving these equations. Take for example 10 choose 7. I just do 10! / 7! / 3! and I get 120
and for example 20 choose 5 = 20! / 5! / 15! = 15,504 <--- you use the equal sign as a command to evaluate a constant term, but that's not solving an equation for a variable

I don't know how to use that formular to answer these questions :/

There isn't much of a difference between the formula you use and mine:



with the values of your 1st example:



Instead of using fixed values your equation (from your 1st post) contains a variable n. So you have to transform the given equation (which is only possible using the general form) such that you are able to determine a value for n. That's what I've done for you. Now go ahead and solve for n.

Originally Posted by uperkurk

I've never used that formular when solving these equations. Take for example 10 choose 7. I just do 10! / 7! / 3! and I get 120 and for example 20 choose 5 = 20! / 5! / 15! = 15,504
I don't know how to use that formular to answer these questions :/

The reason that I answered the way I did is that I suspected that you may not have understood the principle.
Actually this is a vary simple question.
In , we look at it and see at once .
To understand why, one has to understand how works.

It is easy to prove that

So if then or .

Originally Posted by Plato

It is easy to prove that

So if then or .

Strictly speaking, is not sufficient to conclude that implies . We could also use the fact that for a given N, the sequence for n = 0, ..., N goes first up and then down, so that for each M there exist at most two n's such that .

Originally Posted by Plato

From that we get,

Originally Posted by uperkurk

I don't get it... what value is N?

But how do I compute that using my calculator? N still does not have a value, you're saying 8x7x6x5 = (N - 4) but what is N?

To repeat, is not an equation of the form N = ..., which allows calculating N immediately. Rather, it is a constraint on N (of the same sort as or ) and has to be solved first. It is an equation of fourth degree, and two solutions can be easily guessed (earboth noted that N = -1 is a solutions). The two other solutions turn out to be complex numbers, so they are irrelevant for the problem. However, Plato's method at the top of the post is easier.

Ok so here I see how you have come to 15, just add the two numbers together, I'm not all that familiar with mathematic notation, what does the . mean between 8.7.6.5 and the thing that throws me off is you're saying N - 5 or whatever

So I can put this into the formular which would look like this




But if I just said



I don't understand your formular, I'm really bad at reading formulars


P.S That formular still does not make sense to me... in my calculator I type, 10! divided by 7! divided by 10 - 7!

I don't think I'm reading the formular correctly

Originally Posted by uperkurk

But if I just said

The answer is
Throw your calculator away or at least put in a drawer.
You don't need it for these problems.
You have a brain.

What so literally that's all you do? Is add the two k numbers and you have your N number?

Originally Posted by uperkurk

What so literally that's all you do? Is add the two k numbers and you have your N number?

For equations of these particular form, yes. This does not work, for example, for . Also, it helps to understand why the sum of the two bottom numbers is the solution. This was explained in posts #7 and #8.

Originally Posted by uperkurk

Ok so here I see how you have come to 15, just add the two numbers together, I'm not all that familiar with mathematic notation, what does the . mean between 8.7.6.5

It's the multiplication sign.

Also, the word is "formula," not "formular."

In the exam I'll most likely have to provide some working out, I'll just say what you said

or