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Math Help - Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

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    Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    I'm having a debate with a friend and I'm saying that at some point down the chain of creation, something must have always existed otherwise nothing would exist.

    a exists because b created it.
    b exists because c created it.
    c exists because d created it.
    ect ect

    but there is a problem with this, if the list goes to infinity, then A would never exist. At some point down the line there needs to be something which has always existed. Whether it's god, energy or a 3 headed dragon riding a pony. Something must have always have existed otherwise A wouldn't have ever been created in the first place.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Maybe a definite solution to Inifinity is to stop thinking infinitely.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Of course, there is a simple resolution to this- the postulated situation cannot exist. The initial 'hypothesis' is false.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by uperkurk View Post
    ....
    but there is a problem with this, if the list goes to infinity, then A would never exist. At some point down the line there needs to be something which has always existed. Whether it's god, energy or a 3 headed dragon riding a pony. Something must have always have existed otherwise A wouldn't have ever been created in the first place.
    Why?

    Also if A is the Universe why did it need a creator at all, maybe it always existed or is itself the un-caused cause.

    .
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by uperkurk View Post
    I'm having a debate with a friend and I'm saying that at some point down the chain of creation, something must have always existed otherwise nothing would exist.

    a exists because b created it.
    b exists because c created it.
    c exists because d created it.
    ect ect

    but there is a problem with this, if the list goes to infinity, then A would never exist. At some point down the line there needs to be something which has always existed. Whether it's god, energy or a 3 headed dragon riding a pony. Something must have always have existed otherwise A wouldn't have ever been created in the first place.
    I agree with this but i can't prove it since history is full of examples of logical thinking that led to the wrong conclusion. Zeno's so called paradoxes, the acceleration of falling bodies, the horseless carriage and bicycle mechanics that could fly , to name a few.

    It is the ultimate question , isn't it?

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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by zzephod View Post
    Why?

    Also if A is the Universe why did it need a creator at all, maybe it always existed or is itself the un-caused cause.

    .
    Well remember that the universe was created from the big bang. So we know for certain that the universe that we live in hasn't always been. The energy that created the big bang is something that could have always existed or the energy could have created itself. Maybe the chain of creation is actually very small and it does stop at the big bang. On the other hand the chain of creation could be very large.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by uperkurk View Post
    Well remember that the universe was created from the big bang. So we know for certain that the universe that we live in hasn't always been. ..
    No we don't, for a number of possible reasons:

    1. Time was created with the Big Bang, therefore there was no time when the universe did not exist.

    2. The Universe was not created at the Big Bang, it existed before ...

    3. Let t be the usual time variable, now introduce a new cosmic time variable \tau=\log(t), voilą the Universe has always existed.

    4. We don't know ... (and introducing a god like entity, or a first cause, to explain it explains nothing - to paraphrase Pierre-Simon Laplace)

    .
    Last edited by zzephod; July 13th 2013 at 09:04 PM.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by uperkurk View Post
    The energy that created the big bang is something that could have always existed or the energy could have created itself...
    If the energy existed, the Universe existed ...

    .
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by zzephod View Post
    No we don't, for a number of possible reasons:

    1. Time was created with the Big Bang, therefore there was no time when the universe did not exist.

    2. The Universe was not created at the Big Bang, it existed before ...

    3. Let t be the usual time variable, now introduce a new cosmic time variable \tau=\log(t), voilą the Universe has always existed.

    4. We don't know ... (and introducing a god like entity, or a first cause, to explain it explains nothing - to paraphrase Pierre-Simon Laplace)

    .
    OK you haven't really provided any sort of possible answer on what you think it true. By the sounds of it you think that the energy has always existed? e.g the singularity?

    That is a valid idea just as much as any other idea. Don't forget though that if our universe were to contract back into a singularity again, don't think it will but if it did then once the universe inflated again, creating all the new life and planets ect, the new people in the new universe would reset time to t=0 at the big bang. This clearly isn't correct as time existed before their universe was created.

    Our time only applies to our universe and not the other universes that did / could / possibly exist.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Is it a circle of screaming or a pyramid of screaming?
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    The universe was created some 13.7 billion years ago.
    This is the time we know and we can reach going backwards...The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiaton discovered by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1964 confirm this.
    During these years of existance the CMBR has red shifted and today has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K.
    We can't say anything before 13.7 billion years simply because there is no before...there is not time to refer to...

    The Energy some mentioned existed before the Bing Bang is not the Universe as we consider it today...simply because there was not space and time.
    The Universe is associated with these two essentials space and time...

    All what we have now is the creation after the Bing Bang...whether this is attributed to God or not...it is another story...depending on each and every one's philosophical believes.
    You have opened a never ending subject....
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by uperkurk View Post
    OK you haven't really provided any sort of possible answer on what you think it true. By the sounds of it you think that the energy has always existed? e.g the singularity?

    That is a valid idea just as much as any other idea. Don't forget though that if our universe were to contract back into a singularity again, don't think it will but if it did then once the universe inflated again, creating all the new life and planets ect, the new people in the new universe would reset time to t=0 at the big bang. This clearly isn't correct as time existed before their universe was created.

    Our time only applies to our universe and not the other universes that did / could / possibly exist.
    What I think is irrelevant to showing that your argument is flawed. For all you know I believe god did it yesterday at 9 am, but that is irrelevant to the correctness or otherwise of an argument.
    Last edited by zzephod; July 14th 2013 at 12:17 PM.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by MINOANMAN View Post
    The universe was created some 13.7 billion years ago.
    That is an assumption, what we know is that if we wind time back at some point we reach a state of infinite density and curvature. This is not necessarily the creation event, in fact those parts of physics that we have a firm grasp of break down before this point and most of what you see on TV and in magazines about what happened before 10^{-32} s is speculative.

    This is the time we know and we can reach going backwards...The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiaton discovered by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1964 confirm this.
    The decoupling time is \sim 350,000 years after the nominal time of infinite density, so says very little directly about very early times. What we can say is that the fluctuations in the CMB tell us something about earlier times, but it still does not take us back far enough.

    During these years of existance the CMBR has red shifted and today has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K.
    We can't say anything before 13.7 billion years simply because there is no before...there is not time to refer to...
    On a logarithmic time scale, decoupling is nearer to the present that the supposed inflationary era is to the decoupling time.

    .
    Last edited by zzephod; July 14th 2013 at 12:29 PM.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by zzephod View Post
    What I think is irrelevant to showing that your argument is flawed. For all you know I believe god did it yesterday at 9 am,
    Don't let it out! With all those fossils, history books, etc. I put out, I've been trying to convince people the universe was much older than that!

    but that is irrelevant to the correctness or otherwise of an argument.
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    Re: Who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by uperkurk View Post
    I'm having a debate with a friend and I'm saying that at some point down the chain of creation, something must have always existed otherwise nothing would exist.

    a exists because b created it.
    b exists because c created it.
    c exists because d created it.
    ect ect

    but there is a problem with this, if the list goes to infinity, then A would never exist. At some point down the line there needs to be something which has always existed. Whether it's god, energy or a 3 headed dragon riding a pony. Something must have always have existed otherwise A wouldn't have ever been created in the first place.
    I know the thread has evolved a bit since the original post, but as a point of logic the above chain is similar to this problem:
    -1 exists because 0 exists and is 1 more than it (ie. 0 - 1 = -1)
    -2 exists because -1 exists and is 1 more than it (ie. -1 -1 = -2)
    -3 exists because -2 exists and is 1 more than it....

    Where does this chain break down?

    -Dan
    Last edited by topsquark; October 7th 2013 at 03:36 PM.
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