Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Math Help - cardinality of the Cantor set only uncountable or necessarily that of the continuum?

  1. #1
    Member
    Joined
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    130

    cardinality of the Cantor set only uncountable or necessarily that of the continuum?

    In the Wikipedia account of the Cantor tertiary set, it is remarked that the cardinality of the set is uncountable. Can this can be strengthened to it needing to be as large as the continuum? (This is not necessarily the same thing if we assume that the continuum hypothesis is false, so that uncountable could also be aleph-1, below the continuity of the continuum.) It would seem by the proof given there that it would be, but I am not certain. If one started out with a subset of the interval with only aleph-one points in it, would the construction go through?
    Thanks.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  2. #2
    MHF Contributor FernandoRevilla's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    2,162
    Thanks
    45
    The cantor set T is homeomorphic to the product space:

    \prod \left\{{A_i:i\in \mathbb{N}}\right\},\quad A_i=\left\{{0,2}\right\}

    where in A_i we consider the discrete topology, so:

    \#(T)=2^{\aleph_0}=c



    Fernando Revilla
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  3. #3
    Member
    Joined
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    130
    Thanks. In other words, yes to my first question and no to the second one.

    By the way, there seems to be something grammatically wrong with your quote from Sylvester. "is according to superficially" doesn't make sense. Is there a typo there?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  4. #4
    MHF Contributor FernandoRevilla's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    2,162
    Thanks
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by nomadreid View Post
    By the way, there seems to be something grammatically wrong with your quote from Sylvester. "is according to superficially" doesn't make sense. Is there a typo there?

    It is an exact quote written in not contemporary English. Look for example here



    Fernando Revilla
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    451
    Thanks
    2
    Nomadreid - look at Fernando's post carefully. He is telling you that the cantor set has the same cardinality as the continuum. That is, it is the same size as the reals. It is not \omega_1 unless the continuum hypothesis holds.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  6. #6
    Banned
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,261
    Thanks
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteve View Post
    Nomadreid - look at Fernando's post carefully. He is telling you that the cantor set has the same cardinality as the continuum. That is, it is the same size as the reals. It is not \omega_1 unless the continuum hypothesis holds.

    Is \omega_1 a new way to denote \aleph_1? I really don't know.

    Tonio
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    451
    Thanks
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by tonio View Post
    Is \omega_1 a new way to denote \aleph_1? I really don't know.

    Tonio
    \omega_1 is the notation usually used for the ordinal, and \aleph_1 is used for the cardinal. Of course these two numbers are equal (because \omega_1 is a cardinal and therefore it is equal to its cardinality), so they can be used interchangeably. I think that I might be one of the few people that uses the ordinal notation - I developed this habit in graduate school simply because writing the hebrew letter was unnatural for me and ruined my flow.

    And it's not a new notation - I believe this notation was used since the ordinals were introduced.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  8. #8
    Banned
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,261
    Thanks
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteve View Post
    \omega_1 is the notation usually used for the ordinal, and \aleph_1 is used for the cardinal. Of course these two numbers are equal (because \omega_1 is a cardinal and therefore it is equal to its cardinality), so they can be used interchangeably. I think that I might be one of the few people that uses the ordinal notation - I developed this habit in graduate school simply because writing the hebrew letter was unnatural for me and ruined my flow.

    And it's not a new notation - I believe this notation was used since the ordinals were introduced.

    I know the ordinal notation for the naturals in the usual order, but never saw it used in the way you did.

    I can't see how an ordinal can be the same as a cardinal as they both apply on different things.

    For exmple, the set \{2,....,1\} is cleary of cardinality \aleph_0 , yet its ordinal is \omega+1 , and

    it can't be that \omega+1=\aleph_0 since then also \omega=\aleph_0 by taking the

    naturals in the usual order...

    Tonio
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    451
    Thanks
    2
    Every well-ordered set is isomorphic to a unique ordinal. The example you gave is a well-ordered set isomorphic to the ordinal \omega +1. The ordinal \omega + 1 is not a cardinal. It's cardinality is \omega or as you probably prefer to call it \aleph_0. So \omega +1 \ne \omega because these are nonisomorphic well-ordered sets. But the cardinality of \omega + 1 is \omega because there is a bijection between \omega +1 and \omega.

    From the set theoretic point of view every cardinal is an ordinal. A cardinal is just an ordinal that is not equinumerous with any smaller ordinal (A and B are equinumerous if there is a bijection between them).

    Given an arbitrary set, assuming the axiom of choice, this set has a unique cardinality. The cardinality of the set is a cardinal (thus it is also an ordinal). Note that to "see" cardinality you just need a bijection, whereas to see which ordinal you are isomorphic to requires an order-preserving bijection.

    As one more example (to try to help clarify my use of notation), every countable ordinal (and in fact every countable set) has cardinality \aleph_0, but only the ordinal \omega is actually equal to \aleph_0. thus it is mathematically correct to use \omega in place of \aleph_0. The difference between them is only the way you think about them. People tend to think about \aleph_0 as the size of the natural numbers, and as \omega as the ordering of the natural numbers, but in fact they are the same (at least when using the standard set-theoretical definitions).

    Note: I realize that you probably understand most of this already - I'm just trying to give you enough information to justify my use of notation.
    Last edited by DrSteve; February 5th 2011 at 06:04 AM.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  10. #10
    Member
    Joined
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    130
    DrSteve, my reply to him indicated that I understood him, so I am not sure what the correction is about. Let me reiterate: I asked two questions:
    (1) "....the cardinality of the set is uncountable. Can this can be strengthened to it needing to be as large as the continuum?"
    (2) " If one started out with a subset of the interval with only aleph-one points in it, would the construction go through?" ( I meant, of course, a dense subset of the unit interval.)
    I answered " yes to my first question and no to the second one". This is what you wrote, so there is no disagreement.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    451
    Thanks
    2
    Aha - I completely missed the second question. Thanks for the clarification.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  12. #12
    Banned
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,261
    Thanks
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteve View Post
    Every well-ordered set is isomorphic to a unique ordinal. The example you gave is a well-ordered set isomorphic to the ordinal \omega +1. The ordinal \omega + 1 is not a cardinal. It's cardinality is \omega or as you probably prefer to call it \aleph_0. So \omega +1 \ne \omega because these are nonisomorphic well-ordered sets. But the cardinality of \omega + 1 is \omega because there is a bijection between \omega +1 and \omega.

    From the set theoretic point of view every cardinal is an ordinal. A cardinal is just an ordinal that is not equinumerous with any smaller ordinal (A and B are equinumerous if there is a bijection between them).

    Given an arbitrary set, assuming the axiom of choice, this set has a unique cardinality. The cardinality of the set is a cardinal (thus it is also an ordinal). Note that to "see" cardinality you just need a bijection, whereas to see which ordinal you are isomorphic to requires an order-preserving bijection.

    As one more example (to try to help clarify my use of notation), every countable ordinal (and in fact every countable set) has cardinality \aleph_0, but only the ordinal \omega is actually equal to \aleph_0. thus it is mathematically correct to use \omega in place of \aleph_0. The difference between them is only the way you think about them. People tend to think about \aleph_0 as the size of the natural numbers, and as \omega as the ordering of the natural numbers, but in fact they are the same (at least when using the standard set-theoretical definitions).

    Note: I realize that you probably understand most of this already - I'm just trying to give you enough information to justify my use of notation.

    Yes, I knew that but your explanation helped quite a bit. I still am not convinced

    of that equivalence in using both term interchangeably since I'm used to think of

    ordinals as intrinsically attached to order, whereas cardinals are not, but of course

    this may be just my own ignorance.

    Tonio
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Nov 2010
    From
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    451
    Thanks
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by tonio View Post
    Yes, I knew that but your explanation helped quite a bit. I still am not convinced

    of that equivalence in using both term interchangeably since I'm used to think of

    ordinals as intrinsically attached to order, whereas cardinals are not, but of course

    this may be just my own ignorance.

    Tonio
    Perhaps just one last comment about this.

    The most accepted definition of cardinality in current times seems to be that the cardinality of a set is the least ordinal to which that set is isomorphic. This definition depends on the axiom of choice, since without choice some sets can't be well-ordered. I always follow this definition.

    I believe that some would strip away the ordering in the definition of cardinal (as you seem to do). If you take this stance, then you would be correct in saying that my notation is incorrect.

    I believe that if choice fails, a definition of cardinality could still be made using the axiom of foundation, but I have not studied this myself (I always assume choice).
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    466
    Thanks
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by tonio View Post
    I can't see how an ordinal can be the same as a cardinal as they both apply on different things.
    With the most common set theoretical definitions, every cardinal is an ordinal. A cardinal is an ordinal that is not equinumerous with any of its members.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    466
    Thanks
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by tonio View Post
    I still am not convinced of that equivalence in using both term interchangeably
    They're not used interchangably. Every cardinal is an ordinal, but not every ordinal is a cardinal.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Math Help Forum Discussions

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: February 6th 2011, 02:19 AM
  2. Cardinality of the continuum
    Posted in the Differential Geometry Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: September 22nd 2010, 01:10 AM
  3. set of all finite subsets of a continuum has cardinality continuum
    Posted in the Differential Geometry Forum
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: February 3rd 2010, 10:49 PM
  4. cantor set is uncountable
    Posted in the Differential Geometry Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 6th 2009, 12:14 AM
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: October 11th 2008, 02:42 PM

Search Tags


/mathhelpforum @mathhelpforum