# f(x) graph based on derivative graph help

• Dec 31st 2008, 10:32 PM
OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
f(x) graph based on derivative graph help
Hello MHF,

I am stuck on part c of this question and am not 100% sure on a and b either. There is a table involved. It is attached.

Attachment 9426

a) What are the x-coordinates of all absolute maximum and absolute minimum points of $f$ on the interval $\left[-3, 3\right]$. Justify your answer.

b)What are the x-coordinates of all points of inflection of $f$ on the interval $\left[-3, 3\right]$? Justify your answer.

c) Sketch a graph that satisfies the given properties of $f$.

a-answer) i got $x=1$ for a maximum because the $f'(x)$ goes from negative y values to 0 back to negative y values. is this correct?

b-answer) point of inflections occurs when $f''(x)=0$ and thats and $x=1$, I don't think there are any other points, correct?

c-answer) i could never figure out how to do that on MHF but i have seen other people do it. All my graphs don't seem to work, but from the chart i think there are 2 separate functions?

any help, especially with c would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
• Dec 31st 2008, 11:40 PM
Jhevon
Quote:

Originally Posted by OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
Hello MHF,

I am stuck on part c of this question and am not 100% sure on a and b either. There is a table involved. It is attached.

Attachment 9426

a) What are the x-coordinates of all absolute maximum and absolute minimum points of $f$ on the interval $\left[-3, 3\right]$. Justify your answer.

b)What are the x-coordinates of all points of inflection of $f$ on the interval $\left[-3, 3\right]$? Justify your answer.

c) Sketch a graph that satisfies the given properties of $f$.

a-answer) i got $x=1$ for a maximum because the $f'(x)$ goes from negative y values to 0 back to negative y values. is this correct?

b-answer) point of inflections occurs when $f''(x)=0$ and thats and $x=1$, I don't think there are any other points, correct?

c-answer) i could never figure out how to do that on MHF but i have seen other people do it. All my graphs don't seem to work, but from the chart i think there are 2 separate functions?

any help, especially with c would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

something confuses me about the table. you have two possibilities for x = 1. the derivatives can be zero or undefined. which is it?

for (c), does this help?
- where the first derivative is positive, the graph is increasing. (going up as you move from left to right)
- where the first derivative is negative, the graph is decreasing. (going down as you move from left to right).
- where the first derivative is zero or undefined, you have a critical point. these can be maximums, minimums, inflection points, etc.

- where the second derivative is positive, the graph is concave up (curved like a U or a smile)
- where the second derivative is negative, the graph is concave down (curved like a $\cap$ or a frown)
- if the second derivative is zero, you have a possible inflection point. you can test if this is the case. an inflection occurs if the second derivative changes sign on either side of the point you are concerned with

so drawing a graph based on the table means you have to follow the behavior described by these properties where appropriate
• Dec 31st 2008, 11:41 PM
Maximum and minimum
Hello OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor

First, note that your answers to a and b are contradictory: you can't have a point of inflexion that's also a maximum. So, let's review what you need in order to determine which is which:

• At a maximum or minimum turning point, $f'(x) =0$
• At a maximum, $f'(x)$ goes from being positive on the left of the turning point to being negative on the right of it. So $f'(x)$ is decreasing, and hence $f''(x)$ is negative. And conversely...
• At a minimum, $f''(x)$ is positive.
• At a point of inflexion $f''(x)=0$

So, from the table, the only point at which $f'(x) =0$ is where $x=1$, and at this point $f''(x)=0$. So:

a) There are no maximum or minimum points in this interval

b) There is a point of inflexion where $x =1$

c) As far as the sketch is concerned:

• For $-3, the gradient of the graph is positive, and it's increasing (because both $f'$ and $f''$ are positive), and tends to infinity as $x$ tends to $-1$. So there's going to be an asymptote at $x=-1$.
• For $-1, gradient is negative but the graph is levelling out since $f''$ is positive and hence the gradient is increasing (i.e. becoming less negative)
• At $x=1$, the graph is horizontal, but the gradient starts to go negative again after this point - hence a point of inflexion.
• For $x>1$, the gradient continues to decrease, and the graph therefore becomes steeper.

You should be able to sketch the graph now. (The way I would do it on MHF is to create a .jpg either using a drawing package or scanning a hand-drawn graph, and attach it using the 'Manage Attachments' button.)

Hope that helps.

• Dec 31st 2008, 11:48 PM
kalagota
Quote:

Originally Posted by OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
a-answer) i got $x=1$ for a maximum because the $f'(x)$ goes from negative y values to 0 back to negative y values. is this correct?

no. let $\varepsilon >0$. suppose $f(a)$ exists. $(a,f(a))$ is a maximum point (minimum point) if
1. $f'(a)=0$ or $f'(a)$ does not exist
2. $f'(a-\varepsilon)> 0$ and $f'(a+\varepsilon)< 0$ ( $f'(a-\varepsilon)< 0$ and $f'(a+\varepsilon)> 0$).

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
b-answer) point of inflections occurs when $f''(x)=0$ ... correct?

no.. POI occurs at $a$ if $f(a)$ exists and $f''(a-\varepsilon)f''(a+\varepsilon)<0$

it doesn't really mean that if $f''(x)=0$ (or dne), then it is already a POI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
c-answer) i could never figure out how to do that on MHF but i have seen other people do it. All my graphs don't seem to work, but from the chart i think there are 2 separate functions?

any help, especially with c would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

depending on the graph that you will make, either it will consists of one part or two part since there is no condition on $f(-1)$.. however, if it exists, then the graph must be of one part only; otherwise, the graph is of 2 parts..
• Dec 31st 2008, 11:49 PM
OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
i am so sorry about the chart, i fixed the mistake now. Thank you Jhevon for pointing it out.
• Jan 1st 2009, 12:04 AM
kalagota
Quote:

a) There are no maximum or minimum points in this interval

...

c) As far as the sketch is concerned:

• For $-3, the gradient of the graph is positive, and it's increasing (because both $f'$ and $f''$ are positive), and tends to infinity as $x$ tends to $-1$. So there's going to be an asymptote at $x=-1$.
• For $-1, gradient is negative but the graph is levelling out since $f''$ is positive and hence the gradient is increasing (i.e. becoming less negative)

....

hmm, there is a possibility that at $x=-1$, it is not asymptote. note that if $f(-1)$ exists, then the point $(-1,f(-1))$ is a pointed one (or is that a cusp?); thus if $f(-1)$ exists, then the point $(-1,f(-1))$ is a maximum point on this interval..
• Jan 1st 2009, 12:05 AM
OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
so this is the graph i got from the rules and tips you guys said. I hope you can see it.

Attachment 9427

and thanks grandad for correcting my a).
• Jan 1st 2009, 12:08 AM
kalagota
yes, that one is a possible graph, and if you read my comments, there is another possible graph..
• Jan 1st 2009, 12:18 AM
OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
so i made my previous graph bigger to view here:

Attachment 9428

at this is the graph where f(-1) exists

Attachment 9429

are both graphs good? do they both work?
• Jan 1st 2009, 12:21 AM
kalagota
yes. these are the two possible graphs..
• Jan 1st 2009, 06:25 AM
Maximum and minimum
Hello everyone -

My feeling here is that for the most part, many of these posts are making things too complicated. Obviously, we're not told the level of the course on which this question appears, but as a simple set of tests for max, min and points of inflexion, I would re-iterate my original post. To introduce
$\epsilon > 0$ into the discussion is probably not terribly helpful.

Also, note that in the original question, part (c) only asks for a graph that satisfies these conditions - not a full-blown discussion on all possible graphs. The most obvious example is that the curve is asymptotic to
$x = -1$.

As to the table showing two possible values at
$x = 1$, I thought that this was so obviously a typo that I didn't think it was worth passing comment.

• Jan 1st 2009, 01:23 PM
OnMyWayToBeAMathProffesor
I am sorry, I should have said I am an AP Calc-AB student.

I have to admit, I wasn't entirely sure what $\epsilon$ was but made a graph with a cusp following what kalagota said. I will include both graphs to show both possibilities. Thank you everyone.
• Jan 1st 2009, 10:23 PM
kalagota
Quote:

Hello everyone -

My feeling here is that for the most part, many of these posts are making things too complicated. Obviously, we're not told the level of the course on which this question appears, but as a simple set of tests for max, min and points of inflexion, I would re-iterate my original post. To introduce
$\epsilon > 0$ into the discussion is probably not terribly helpful.

there is nothing special about the introduction of $\varepsilon > 0$ except for the fact that it is just a symbol for a positive number, in this case, nothing more, nothing less. so i don't think it is not helpful.

Quote:

Also, note that in the original question, part (c) only asks for a graph that satisfies these conditions - not a full-blown discussion on all possible graphs. The most obvious example is that the curve is asymptotic to $x = -1$.