Results 1 to 15 of 15

Math Help - inhomogeneous ODE 2. Order - a big problem

  1. #1
    Member
    Joined
    Jul 2008
    From
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    75

    inhomogeneous ODE 2. Order - a big problem

    Hello to everybody!

    I'm trying to solve the following ODE:

    y"(t) -5y'(t) +6y(t) = 2tan (2t)

    here's what I have till now:

    (D^2-5D+6)y = 0 is the homogeneous part

    y_h = A*e^(2t) + B*e^(3t)


    What can I do for the particular solution?
    In general I know 2 methods - the ansatz with the characteristic polynomial when the inhomogeneous part is a function of the form: a*e^(bx) (a, b are complex numbers) and the Laplace-transform.

    Unfortunatelly neither helps me finding y_p and I know it does exist, cuz Mathematica has given it

    I really hope you could help me If the solution is too difficult to be done manually, then I would be glad to see it described with words or some general formulae.


    best wishes and 10x
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  2. #2
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marine View Post
    Hello to everybody!

    I'm trying to solve the following ODE:

    y"(t) -5y'(t) +6y(t) = 2tan (2t)

    here's what I have till now:

    (D^2-5D+6)y = 0 is the homogeneous part

    y_h = A*e^(2t) + B*e^(3t)


    What can I do for the particular solution?
    In general I know 2 methods - the ansatz with the characteristic polynomial when the inhomogeneous part is a function of the form: a*e^(bx) (a, b are complex numbers) and the Laplace-transform.

    Unfortunatelly neither helps me finding y_p and I know it does exist, cuz Mathematica has given it

    I really hope you could help me If the solution is too difficult to be done manually, then I would be glad to see it described with words or some general formulae.


    best wishes and 10x
    Try using variation of parameters: Method of variation of parameters
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  3. #3
    Member
    Joined
    Jul 2008
    From
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    75
    thanks, that helped me a lot

    but there is an integral of the Form:

    Int[tanx*e^x]dx

    which must be solved in the 4th step and I failed

    Does anyone have any suggestions for an analytical solution?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  4. #4
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marine View Post
    thanks, that helped me a lot

    but there is an integral of the Form:

    Int[tanx*e^x]dx

    which must be solved in the 4th step and I failed

    Does anyone have any suggestions for an analytical solution?
    This integral has no solution in terms of a finite number of elementary functions. You might need to check your work. Perhaps post what you've done.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails inhomogeneous ODE 2. Order - a big problem-msp22449313791302241933_173.gif  
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  5. #5
    Rhymes with Orange Chris L T521's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2008
    From
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,844
    Thanks
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Marine View Post
    Hello to everybody!

    I'm trying to solve the following ODE:

    y"(t) -5y'(t) +6y(t) = 2tan (2t)

    here's what I have till now:

    (D^2-5D+6)y = 0 is the homogeneous part

    y_h = A*e^(2t) + B*e^(3t)


    What can I do for the particular solution?
    In general I know 2 methods - the ansatz with the characteristic polynomial when the inhomogeneous part is a function of the form: a*e^(bx) (a, b are complex numbers) and the Laplace-transform.

    Unfortunatelly neither helps me finding y_p and I know it does exist, cuz Mathematica has given it

    I really hope you could help me If the solution is too difficult to be done manually, then I would be glad to see it described with words or some general formulae.


    best wishes and 10x
    I'm just throwing this idea out there, but do you know how to solve DE's using Power Series?? I think that may help here [someone correct me if I'm wrong]

    --Chris
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  6. #6
    MHF Contributor Mathstud28's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2008
    From
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,641
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris L T521 View Post
    I'm just throwing this idea out there, but do you know how to solve DE's using Power Series?? I think that may help here [someone correct me if I'm wrong]

    --Chris
    I do not think this would be a good idea. Have you ever seen the Maclaurin series for \tan(x)?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  7. #7
    Rhymes with Orange Chris L T521's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2008
    From
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,844
    Thanks
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathstud28 View Post
    I do not think this would be a good idea. Have you ever seen the Maclaurin series for \tan(x)?
    Now that you mention that...yes I have...its not that pretty...

    --Chris
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  8. #8
    Member
    Joined
    Jul 2008
    From
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    75
    'This integral has no solution in terms of a finite number of elementary functions. You might need to check your work. Perhaps post what you've done.':

    hmmm, this function I have not seen yet. But I suppose I could just leave it as an integral in that case. Btw, what's its name?


    ' but do you know how to solve DE's using Power Series?? I think that may help here': - unfortunately I don't .

    What I know about ODEs I have learnt by myself - from scripts and I-net sites and from you tube movies. (I just decided to take a look at them in preparation of my study in physics I am going to start in october . To my surprise this matter appeared to be somehow imperfect (from a point of view of a high school student )
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  9. #9
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marine View Post
    Hello to everybody!

    I'm trying to solve the following ODE:

    y"(t) -5y'(t) +6y(t) = 2tan (2t)

    [snip]

    What can I do for the particular solution?

    [snip]

    Unfortunatelly neither helps me finding y_p and I know it does exist, cuz Mathematica has given it

    [snip]
    What particular solution does mathematica give?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  10. #10
    Member
    Joined
    Jul 2008
    From
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    75
    I meant it gives a solution to the problem in general, which means there must be a particular solution. I checked in the doc. centre but couldn't find a command which gives only a particular solution.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  11. #11
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marine View Post
    I meant it gives a solution to the problem in general, which means there must be a particular solution. I checked in the doc. centre but couldn't find a command which gives only a particular solution.
    What is the solution it gives to the problem in general?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  12. #12
    Rhymes with Orange Chris L T521's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2008
    From
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,844
    Thanks
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by mr fantastic View Post
    What particular solution does mathematica give?


    --Chris
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  13. #13
    Member
    Joined
    Jul 2008
    From
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    75
    seems pretty complex, doesn't it?

    nevertheless, it has an answer and the thread above shows the way to solve it

    but how do you find a general solution to an ODE of the form:

    y''[x]+p[x]*y'[x]+q[x]*y[x]==0

    ???

    in the thread by mr fantastic in his 1st reply, this form is considered as the general form of a linear homogeneous 2nd order ODE (which it is), but they don't teach how to find the solution hmmm

    (they only show the way with the char. polynomial using the disposition p[x] and q[x] are constant)


    so, does anyone of you have an idea?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  14. #14
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marine View Post
    seems pretty complex, doesn't it?

    nevertheless, it has an answer and the thread above shows the way to solve it

    but how do you find a general solution to an ODE of the form:

    y''[x]+p[x]*y'[x]+q[x]*y[x]==0

    ???

    in the thread by mr fantastic in his 1st reply, this form is considered as the general form of a linear homogeneous 2nd order ODE (which it is), but they don't teach how to find the solution hmmm

    (they only show the way with the char. polynomial using the disposition p[x] and q[x] are constant)


    so, does anyone of you have an idea?
    Your inexperience with differential equations is evident. The method of solving this DE depends on what p(x) and q(x) are. It may be that it's not even possible to get an analytic solution without inventing a brand new function.


    By the way, given the output of Mathematica, I don't understand why you were trying to find an analytic form for the particular solution. Clearly there was not one in terms of functions you were familiar with.

    For many of the types of differential equations you'll meet in physics (especially quantum mechanics) you'll use power series methods to solve them. And meet new functions as a result (Legendre polynomials, Laguerre polynomials, hermite polynomials etc).

    You would be best served going to a traditional textbook and carefully working through it.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  15. #15
    Member
    Joined
    Jul 2008
    From
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by mr fantastic View Post
    Your inexperience with differential equations is evident. The method of solving this DE depends on what p(x) and q(x) are. It may be that it's not even possible to get an analytic solution without inventing a brand new function.


    By the way, given the output of Mathematica, I don't understand why you were trying to find an analytic form for the particular solution. Clearly there was not one in terms of functions you were familiar with.

    For many of the types of differential equations you'll meet in physics (especially quantum mechanics) you'll use power series methods to solve them. And meet new functions as a result (Legendre polynomials, Laguerre polynomials, hermite polynomials etc).

    You would be best served going to a traditional textbook and carefully working through it.

    At the moment I'm searching for a book about DEs but it's not that easy finding one here. Such highly sophisticated math books have a very limited circulation, which makes them difficult to find.

    I received a Russian math book from my father which deals with most of the problems, however the print is dated to 1960

    So the way I try to learn solving them is via Internet, some you tube lecture movies and scripts or special sites.

    What's left is just wait till the university, but this option does not appeal to me very much
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

Similar Math Help Forum Discussions

  1. Second Order Inhomogeneous ODE
    Posted in the Differential Equations Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: February 17th 2010, 10:04 AM
  2. Second order ODEs - inhomogeneous
    Posted in the Differential Equations Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 25th 2009, 07:50 AM
  3. 2nd Order Inhomogeneous DE
    Posted in the Differential Equations Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: April 30th 2009, 09:17 AM
  4. Second Order Inhomogeneous Differential Equation
    Posted in the Differential Equations Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: October 18th 2008, 09:52 PM
  5. 2nd order DE inhomogeneous help!
    Posted in the Calculus Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: May 24th 2008, 09:10 PM

Search Tags


/mathhelpforum @mathhelpforum