Results 1 to 9 of 9

Math Help - Find the points that have the common tangent line

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Joined
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    65

    Find the points that have the common tangent line

    There are two points on the curve y = x^4 - 2x^2 - x that have a common tangent line. Find those points.

    So far I think I know what needs to be found but I cannot put the pieces together.

    y-prime = 4x^3 - 4x - 1

    i need a y prime that yields a slope such that the equation y=mx+b will intersect the initial curve such that the new x value will give the same derivative value as the first point (thus the same sloped tangent)

    but i do not know how to do this
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  2. #2
    Member
    Joined
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    144
    I think there are no two points on the curve that share the same tangent (i.e the line is a tangent to two points on the curve), however two points may share the same gradient and hence a common tangent line and there are infinitely many of these.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Joined
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    65
    im pretty sure there is a common tangent line
    remember this is a 4th degree function
    find a graphing calculator to graph the function and you will see that 1 line can be used for 2 tangent points hence a common tangent
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  4. #4
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by finch41 View Post
    There are two points on the curve y = x^4 - 2x^2 - x that have a common tangent line. Find those points.

    So far I think I know what needs to be found but I cannot put the pieces together.

    y-prime = 4x^3 - 4x - 1

    i need a y prime that yields a slope such that the equation y=mx+b will intersect the initial curve such that the new x value will give the same derivative value as the first point (thus the same sloped tangent)

    but i do not know how to do this
    The easy way:

    f(x) = x^4 - 2x^2 - x

    \Rightarrow f'(x) = 4x^3 - 4x - 1

    By symmetry it's easily seen that f'(1) = f'(-1) ......

    The common tangent line is y = -x - 1. It's tangent to the curve at (1, -2) and (-1, 0).

    If I have the time I might post the hard way.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Joined
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    65
    i have the hard way solution done by my teacher although he said he didn't like it and if i found a different solution, to show him

    so yeah if you have the time, by all means
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  6. #6
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by finch41 View Post
    i have the hard way solution done by my teacher although he said he didn't like it and if i found a different solution, to show him

    so yeah if you have the time, by all means
    If you have a hard way solution there's no point me spending time posting another one which would probably be equivalent. Perhaps you could take the time to post the details of your hard way solution and I'll let you know if it's the same as mine.

    There's an easy way - I posted it - that boils down to intelligent guess work. Obviously the solution for x has to lie within the interval for which f'(x) = constant has more than one solution for x. A graphical approach shows how this interval would be found. x = 1 and x = -1 is an obvious candidate solution to test. insight gets rewarded ......
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Joined
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    65
    yes i had posted the easy way i thought... i could have sworn i did make a post and now its not here... oh it must be in the other thread...

    i sat down and made an accurate sketch of the graph and stumbled on the easy solution....

    here is my teacher's solution: the hard way - let me know what you think


    Q: y=x^4 - 2x^2 - x has two points sharing the same tangent. Find those points.

    ANS: let the points be (b,f(b)) and (a,f(a))
    let b < a

    y prime = 4x^3 - 4x -1
    so the slope of the tangent is

    4a^3 - 4a -1 (equation 1) OR 4b^3 - 4b -1

    4a^3 - 4a -1 = 4b^3 - 4b -1
    a^3 - b^3 = a - b (after simplifying)
    (a-b)(a^2 + ab + b^2) = a-b

    a^2 + ab + b^2 = 1 (equation 2)

    the slope of the tangent is also [f(a) - f(b)] / a-b

    [a^4 - 2a^2 - a - (b^4 - 2b^2 - b) ] / a-b

    = [a^4 - b^4 - 2(a^2-b^2) - (a-b)] / a-b

    = [(a-b)(a^3 + a^2b + ab^2 + b^3) - 2(a-b)(a+b) - (a-b)] / (a-b)

    = (a^3 + a^2b + ab^2 + b^3 - 2(a+b) - 1

    = a^2(a+b) + b^2(a+b) - 2(a+b) -1

    = (a+b) (a^2 + b^2 -2 ) - 1 = y prime = 4a^3 - 4a - 1 (from 1)

    from equation 2 (a+b)(1-ab-2) = 4a(a^2 -1)

    (a+b)(-1-ab) = 4a(-ab-b^2) from 2 again

    (a+b)(-1-ab) = -4ab(a+b)

    there are two cases here either a+b = 0 or a+b is not 0

    if a+b is not zero then:

    -1-ab = -4ab
    3ab = 1 (equation N)

    if N is true then substituting into equation 2 gives

    a^2 + ab + b^2 = 3ab
    a^2 - 2ab + b^2 = 0
    (a-b)^2 = 0
    a=b
    but a is not equal to be as is given in the equation and was stated at the beginning

    therefore a+b = 0

    so we know a = -b

    substitue into equation 2 gives:

    (-b)^2 - b^2 + b^2 = 1
    b^2 = 1
    b = -1
    (we began by saying b < a, and since a = -b, we need b < 0 and a > 0)
    so b = -1 and a = 1

    therefore the points are (-1,0) and (1,-2)

    we can verify this by checking the derivative at -1 and they are equal

    -----

    i hope i made no typos.... if something doesnt read clearly just ask
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  8. #8
    Flow Master
    mr fantastic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    From
    Zeitgeist
    Posts
    16,948
    Thanks
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by finch41 View Post
    yes i had posted the easy way i thought... i could have sworn i did make a post and now its not here... oh it must be in the other thread...

    i sat down and made an accurate sketch of the graph and stumbled on the easy solution....

    here is my teacher's solution: the hard way - let me know what you think


    Q: y=x^4 - 2x^2 - x has two points sharing the same tangent. Find those points.

    ANS: let the points be (b,f(b)) and (a,f(a))
    let b < a

    y prime = 4x^3 - 4x -1
    so the slope of the tangent is

    4a^3 - 4a -1 (equation 1) OR 4b^3 - 4b -1

    4a^3 - 4a -1 = 4b^3 - 4b -1
    a^3 - b^3 = a - b (after simplifying)
    (a-b)(a^2 + ab + b^2) = a-b

    a^2 + ab + b^2 = 1 (equation 2)

    the slope of the tangent is also [f(a) - f(b)] / a-b

    [a^4 - 2a^2 - a - (b^4 - 2b^2 - b) ] / a-b

    = [a^4 - b^4 - 2(a^2-b^2) - (a-b)] / a-b

    = [(a-b)(a^3 + a^2b + ab^2 + b^3) - 2(a-b)(a+b) - (a-b)] / (a-b)

    = (a^3 + a^2b + ab^2 + b^3 - 2(a+b) - 1

    = a^2(a+b) + b^2(a+b) - 2(a+b) -1

    = (a+b) (a^2 + b^2 -2 ) - 1 = y prime = 4a^3 - 4a - 1 (from 1)

    from equation 2 (a+b)(1-ab-2) = 4a(a^2 -1)

    (a+b)(-1-ab) = 4a(-ab-b^2) from 2 again

    (a+b)(-1-ab) = -4ab(a+b)

    there are two cases here either a+b = 0 or a+b is not 0

    if a+b is not zero then:

    -1-ab = -4ab
    3ab = 1 (equation N)

    if N is true then substituting into equation 2 gives

    a^2 + ab + b^2 = 3ab
    a^2 - 2ab + b^2 = 0
    (a-b)^2 = 0
    a=b
    but a is not equal to be as is given in the equation and was stated at the beginning

    therefore a+b = 0

    so we know a = -b

    substitue into equation 2 gives:

    (-b)^2 - b^2 + b^2 = 1
    b^2 = 1
    b = -1
    (we began by saying b < a, and since a = -b, we need b < 0 and a > 0)
    so b = -1 and a = 1

    therefore the points are (-1,0) and (1,-2)

    we can verify this by checking the derivative at -1 and they are equal

    -----

    i hope i made no typos.... if something doesnt read clearly just ask
    Mine is the same (more or less) up to and including the line I've redded.

    Continuing from that point:

    (a+b)(-1-ab) + 4ab(a+b) = 0

    => (a + b)(3ab - 1) = 0

    => a + b = 0 or 3ab = 1.

    From a + b = 0 you get a = 1 and b = -1 or a = -1 and b = 1.

    From 3ab = 1 you get a = b = \frac{\sqrt{3}}{3} or a = b = - \frac{\sqrt{3}}{3}. But b < a => contradiction.

    Therefore the solution is x = 1 and x = -1.
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Joined
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    65
    From 3ab = 1 you get or . But b < a => contradiction

    although, cannot a = 3^1/3 and b = 3^2/3 ?
    Follow Math Help Forum on Facebook and Google+

Similar Math Help Forum Discussions

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: December 22nd 2009, 08:27 AM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: March 28th 2009, 09:18 PM
  3. common tangent line
    Posted in the Calculus Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: December 25th 2008, 03:27 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: December 9th 2008, 03:44 AM
  5. Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 26th 2008, 05:28 AM

Search Tags


/mathhelpforum @mathhelpforum